It appears to be a rule that any vaguely dark, ethereal or otherworldly eventually gets lumped into the "Goth" genre, even if it starts life a million miles from goth's tightly circumscribed perimeter. It happened to Depeche Mode (in the 1980s they weren't goth, but now they're Goth As Fuck), and in the U.S. it seems to have partly happened to the shoegazer genre. (In Commonwealth countries, shoegazer is firmly ensconced in the indie-rock tradition, however.)
To wit, a list of artists and genres who might be filed in the "Goth" sections of record shops in 10 years' time:
And some things you probably won't find filed under "Goth":
Posted by: mark | http://donotuselifts.net/ | Sun Sep 14 17:04:26 2003
(Radiohead,Portishead,Norwegian black metal,German techno)
I thought it already *was*...
Posted by: mark | http://donotuselifts.net/ | Sun Sep 14 17:06:56 2003
misappropriated, I mean
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Sun Sep 14 17:17:17 2003
German techno: only the electro-industrial/EBM stuff like Funkervogt (sp?), which is basically the European form of goth. Also, it is a rather old-fashioned form of electronic music, basically an updating of the standard post-Kraftwerk tropes. I'm talking about stuff like Lali Puna, Solvent, Schneider TM, and various Morr Music laptop-glitch artists.
Posted by: cat | http:// | Sun Sep 14 18:22:37 2003
stop trying to force your genreisation of music onto other people. also i'd bet you any money that a lot of the original "goth" groups WERE influenced by johnny cash. goth artists don't fit into neat little boxes any more than your pretentious indie groups do.
Posted by: mark | http://donotuselifts.net/ | Sun Sep 14 21:29:57 2003
Uh, cat, that's kinda the *point*. That because goth groups were/are influenced by Mr Cash (whose music I've never liked; Goth? COUNTRY!), they have claimed him as their own. If an indie group is influenced by The Cure, does that make The Cure indie?
(And while I'm sure we're all impressed at "genreisation", you could probably get better reader comprehension from "labelling" or "generalisation")
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 05:03:45 2003
If you find my views so objectionable, what are you doing reading my blog?
Posted by: dj | http://deejbah.livejournal.com | Mon Sep 15 06:26:19 2003
why do people do S&M, & B&D?
Posted by: Alex | http:// | Mon Sep 15 07:44:50 2003
To paraphrase Darryl Osmers, You'll Never Never Know if you Never Never Go And Get Whipped.
I'm just wondering how long it will take for the Pagan/Wiccan/Chaos Magick crowds to start 'channelling' The Man In Black for personal advice, divine intercession, parties, bar mitzveh and so on. Perhaps one could invoke Mr Cash if they were planning to drive home drunk from the pub on a rainy night just after being dumped by their girlfriend ...
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 08:33:53 2003
Given the way some of those people mix New Age dolphin spirituality, Norse paganism, Celtic mythology, Native American religion, Cthulhu, Star Wars and Hello Kitty in their personal belief systems, I wouldn't rule it out.
Posted by: Graham | http://grudnuk.com/ | Mon Sep 15 10:06:54 2003
Sounds like Slim Dusty's "Lights on the Hill", actually.
Oh, and cat, goths AREN'T pretentious?
Posted by: mark | http://donotuselifts.net/ | Mon Sep 15 11:14:38 2003
Ah, there's nothing wrong with reading and commenting on the 'blogs of those with whom one disagrees. At least, that's what I tell myself ("whatever gets you thru the night... is all right... it's all right..."). (I hope I'm not the only one hear who recognises those lyrics).
'Course goths aren't pretentious, Graham! They honestly believe they're, like, in tune with death and suffering, and, like, shit. And stuff. And, like, no-one truly understands them, like.
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 12:50:01 2003
My original point about goth sociodynamics was this:
The process by which bands/genres which weren't originally goth are subsumed into goth appears to be something like this: The goth scene constantly faces an influx of teenagers who are "into" NIN/Sisters Of Mercy/Bauhaus because it makes them "goth" and gives them an alienated underground to identify with. Those who have been in the scene longer seek to distance themselves from these kids by seeking out new things on the fringes of goth and beyond, and that are too subtle for the mall-goths to be into; eventually, a genre or act attracts enough of a goth following that it becomes accepted as part of the goth corpus. This happened with Johnny Cash and New Romantic/synthpop, for example. And above are predictions for the next things to be absorbed in this way.
Of course, this process is not unique to goth; though that is one of the better examples of it, probably because of the goth subculture being extremely status-conscious and given to differentiatio
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 12:51:26 2003
Of course, this process is not unique to goth; though that is one of the better examples of it, probably because of the goth subculture being extremely status-conscious and given to differentiation (how many times have you heard one goth remark to another "oh, he/she's not a *real* goth...")
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 12:58:23 2003
And yes, I am well aware that many individual goths (or individuals identified to some extent with the goth subculture) are very nice people. Though the thing about human psychology is that individuals are governed by their individual psychology, but as soon as they gather in groups, that takes a back seat to group psychology, and their individual characteristics are overridden by the characteristics of the group they identify with. (This well-documented principle, for example, is why so many decent, intelligent people become weekend football hooligans or, in extreme cases, participate in acts of genocide.)
Posted by: mitch | http:// | Mon Sep 15 16:11:35 2003
How can this be?
No pages were found containing "bloggoth".
Posted by: Graham | http://grudnuk.com/ | Mon Sep 15 16:20:01 2003
Have you hugged your bloggoth today?
Posted by: acb | http://dev.null.org | Mon Sep 15 16:33:49 2003
Surely, you'd think, someone would have that as a LiveJournal handle.
Posted by: cos | http://polydistortion.net/monkey/ | Wed Sep 17 11:04:06 2003
re: Johnny Cash covering Bad Seeds songs
well, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds did cover a few Johnny Cash songs back in the 80's...
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Posted by: Graham | http://grudnuk.com/ | Sun Sep 14 15:44:52 2003
Well, Al Jourgensen is a big country fan. But that might be the exception of the rule.