The big cover-up

"Why would any woman living in a tolerant country freely choose to wear such a restrictive garment? What these women are really saying is that they adopt the veil because they believe that they should have less freedom than men, and that if they did not wear the veil men would not be accountable for their uncontrollable urges -- so women must cover-up so as not to tempt men. What kind of a message does that send to women?"

I would say that it sends them the message that they live "in a tolerant country".

I personally find myself confused and uncertain about which way to swing on this issue - it's not an easy one to tease out, and I would appreciate your thoughts - but in this case, I would hope that women and people in general were well taught enough that they would think critically about what they see, and not merely be a recipient of a "message" sent by what another person would wear?

This comparison is probably stupid and naive but it has helped me understand...

In highschool some girls in my class took to wearing bike shorts under their school dresses. It became quite popular. The reason behind it was that they hated having to expose their legs and if they were going to do it they were going to protect what little modesty they still had from anyone that got a look up their skirts.

The school made them stop as it "wasn't uniform". I remember thinking it was insane that the school was bascially forcing their girls to expose more than they wanted.

To some, showing their face is as wrong as potentially exposing their underwear, so they where the burqa.

Who am I to tell them their opinions on modesty is wrong? I'm sure there are many people who are forced into certain clothes by their partners. I know of boyfriends who wouldn't let their girlfriend's where short skirts. That's wrong. But that isn't the issue.

Everyone that never wears short skirts hasn't been forced into it.

Here in Pakistan, there are few places in the country where a woman can get away without covering her hair at least. Pakistan is the birthplace of the Burkah, after all (and not Afghanistan as many erroneously believe). It has even been a common practice amongst many fundies to throw acid in the face of women who dare to leave their homes without fully covering their faces.

I haven't had a chance to discuss the issue with our female staff, it's not really considered 'appropriate' but I have had a few conversations with the local 'boys' and the response has been, well, interesting. Many of them have travelled abroad to non muslim countries or have been exposed to non-moslem women in positions of authority and power over their lives. Their opinions on Straw's comments were overwhelmingly positive and along the lines of:

"When you visit our country, we expect you to respect our cultural norms. It's only fair you expect the same of us"

I've always held that it's impossible to get a straight answer from M

Dang these short comments... anyway, to continue my spray:

I've always held that it's impossible to get a straight answer from Moslem women on this issue, given that it's virtually impossible to talk to them alone, away from their men, unless they are moderate moslems who generally hold opinions much like those of Saira Khan.

The big problem with all of this, in my opinion, is that we have to turn this debate away from freedom of religion towards freedom from religion. We're in the 20th century now people and it's time to stop believing in Santa Claus.

Sorry, that should have been 21st century, one of the consequences of spending too much time in Pakistan (where it's actually only the 15th century, literally)

I can understand the above argument, and I think on balance I don't approve of banning the wearing of the veil. It seems "culturally insensitive" when there *are* women for whom not wearing the veil is scary or offensive to them. However, it is also true that the veil can often represent subjugation and worse for the woman wearing it - it can hide wounds from beatings (by their husband or father or some other man), or it can simply be part of a more general repression: a cultural bullying that doesn't allow a person to think for herself or behave the way she wants to.

I think while a "liberal" society shouldn't force someone to dress in a way they want to, it also shouldn't tolerate all facets of another culture in the name of "tolerance". There's nothing wrong or intolerant about disapproving of culturally-instigated (or culturally-sanctioned) oppression (or worse) of women, and nor is there anything wrong with wishing that all people living in a particular country are given the same access to informatio

Fuck... short comments! Can you do something about this, Andrew? Now I've lost the rest of the that sentence/paragraph, but you get the idea. Final part coming...

I don't know about the short skirt analogy. I would lean towards feeling that one the one hand: * short skirts on pubescent or post-pubescent girls are easily (mis)interpreted as a sign of availability that may well not be desirable to the girl in question, in a way that I just don't think covering one's face would or should, when: * the covering up of a person's face creates a major barrier between a person and the rest of the world, both for that person and for those interacting with her. This barrier can cause serious problems for teachers trying to engage in discipline, or indeed trying to treat everyone with equal sympathy. Very little modelling of the covered-up person's internal life can be done when their face is covered up. I think it wouldn't be entirely out of hand to suggest that that covering-up entails a curtailing of the freedoms of the covered-up person, a dampening of that person's opportunities, and I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that that's representative of that culture's des

Argh. What a mess. Trying again:

I don't know about the short skirt analogy. I would lean towards feeling that one the one hand:

* short skirts on pubescent or post-pubescent girls are easily (mis)interpreted as a sign of availability that may well not be desirable to the girl in question, in a way that I just don't think covering one's face would or should, when:

* the covering up of a person's face creates a major barrier between a person and the rest of the world, both for that person and for those interacting with her. This barrier can cause serious problems for teachers trying to engage in discipline, or indeed trying to treat everyone with equal sympathy. Very little modelling of the covered-up person's internal life can be done when their face is covered up.

I think it wouldn't be entirely out of hand to suggest that that covering-up entails a curtailing of the freedoms of the covered-up person, a dampening of that person's opportunities, and I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that that's representative of that culture's desired position for such people (ie women) in its world.

In conclusion, and I realise that this is probably dicey and that's why I'm not a legislator, it seems to me that while it might be reasonable to expect a woman to cover her hair (at least) while visiting Pakistan, it might also be reasonable to expect a Muslim woman to leave her face uncovered when visiting or living in a Western country.

I don't know, but that's what I'm leaning towards...

ok, the obvious problem with this comment: "When you visit our country, we expect you to respect our cultural norms. It's only fair you expect the same of us", as pointed out by my flatmate Jamie, is that there is no cultural norm within Western culture that dictates that one shouldn't cover up.

In fact, sunglasses are a perfect case in point (at least, here in Australia, I can't speak for Britain). Further, how many comics have you seen of young American children dressed so fully they cannot let their arms hang due to the cold weather? (I've only ever seen it in comics, to my shame). And I would think that Britain gets similarly cold, and requires a good scarf, some mittens and a beanie pulled low?

BUT, since I now have discovered that you live in Pakistan, I would ask - what is the attitude there towards body weight? While shape is still obvious, and husbands see their wives true size - is it as big an issue amongst women, or female culture in Islamic nations (or Pakistan in particular?)

While I think that a feminist critique of Islam (and 'Democracy' or 'Western Enlightenment') is vital, it is still patronising, and hardy 'liberal', to project oppression by virtue of the clothes one chooses to wear.

Well, my experience in Pakistan is that, like many things here, the attitude is contradictory. On one hand, especially amongst older people, being overweight is seen as a sign of prosperity and wealth. Amongst the aspirational youth who are constantly being bombarded with western propaganda, this attitude is changing. Neither view is informed by what is healthy.

This is not a consistent view throughout the Moslem world either, in Somalia, large women (especially ones with hairy legs) are considered highly desirable. This has much to do with the belief that they are more fertile, which may not necessarily be true, it does mean that they will be more likely to survive child birth than their impoverished and starving sisters.

Of course, the body image issue is always looked at through a western prism in the mainstream media. It simply isn't an issue in many countries where the great unwashed majority have to struggle to scrape together their daily calorie ration.

Furthermore, I'm not particularly a fan of any of these new Labour twats, but if you listen to Jack Straw's arguments, he actually does make a very strong point about western cultural norms and one that people seem to be getting confused about. It's not about dictating what people wear, it's about how we, in western countries, place so much importance in eye contact and body language when communicating. Straw's arguments aren't about the veil, par se, but about how uncomfortable it makes many people feel to talk to someone wearing a mask. I myself experience this discomfort all the time, even though I'm used to if from 5+ years of living and working in moslem countries.

It's worth noting that body language in many moslem cultures is seen as less important and actual physical contact between men is. You want to make a point or prove your sincerity? Than you take your friend by the hand. Women do the same, between themselves, but physical contact between non-related men and women is absolutely verbotten.

<i>>"violent, drunken, sex-crazed undesirables whom one would naturally want to avoid."</i>

as a violent, drunken, sex-crazed undesirable, i OBJECT to this

Well, I prefer drunken, sex-crazed undesirables to be peaceful, though that's just my personal opinion.

My main point with the skirt is that it's usually not the clothes (full covering) that people have a problem with, it's that "traditionally" people are forced to wear it. The forcing is wrong, the clothes are not. If someone chooses to wear it we shouldn't stop them, but if some one is being forced to wear it, that should be stopped.

The point about Western culture dictating eye contact sounds like an excuse to me. I interact with thousands of people during the course of a year and avoid eye contact with every single one of them...

I'd say the real "Western culture" that is the excuse behind the excuse is the general paranoia that exists these days and the fear of anyone that is or appears to be hiding something.

I'm not just talking about anything recent. I'm talking about "motorcycle helmets must be removed before entering this bank". There is a good reason behind that rule and I don't see any reason to change it. If your face is covered, you cannot enter a bank.

But the whole world isn't a ban